Jessica Fein: Welcome. I'm Jessica Fein, and this is the “I Don't Know How You Do It” podcast, where we talk to people whose lives seem unimaginable from the outside and dive into how they're able to do things that look undoable. I'm so glad you're joining me on this journey, and I hope you enjoy the conversation. 

]Welcome back. If you've been listening to this show for a while. You have undoubtedly heard us talk about grief a lot, and one of the things that we talk about is how uncomfortable grief makes most of us, even though it's the most universal emotion that there is, we don't talk about grief, we don't prepare for it, and when it shows up, we often fumble through awkward condolences.

Most of us try to avoid grief altogether, but not [00:01:00] today's guest, Jen Noonan. Jen doesn't just sit with grief, she welcomes it through her door, pulls up a chair and listens, especially when the grief belongs to a child. A licensed clinical social worker. Jen spent years in pediatric oncology before joining The Children's Room, a leading bereavement center in Massachusetts.

For more than a decade, she has supported children, teens, and families after the death of a parent or sibling doing the very work most people could never do, which is why I wanted to dig in and find out how she does it. What you're about to hear is a conversation about loss, but also resilience about what happens when we stop avoiding loss and start showing up for kids, for families, and for each other, and about the quiet power of doing work, we consider a privilege. Without further ado, I bring you Jen Noonan.

Hi Jen. Welcome to the show. 

Jen Noonan: Hi. Hi. Thank you so much for having me. 

Jessica Fein: I wanna [00:02:00] start by asking you a question that we all get when we're out and about in our daily lives, and I'm curious how you respond when people say to you, so what do you do for work? 

Jen Noonan: Yeah, it's a great question. It sounds so simple. I share that I work for a place called The Children's Room, which is a bereavement center.

Some people know what that means and some people don't. But essentially what I expand on is that I work with kids and teens who have had a parent or a sibling die. And so what that also means is I work with the adults who sort of come along with them. And so I work with adults who have had a spouse, partner, or former spouse or partner die, and adults who have had a child die.

Jessica Fein: I'm wondering, when people hear that, do they say either, wow, that seems really depressing, or how in the world do you do that every day? Like how do people respond when you tell them that? 

Jen Noonan: Yeah, sometimes it's both, right? I think the reaction can be different based on the person, but oftentimes it does kind of pause or stop people.

And I think, you know, one of my [00:03:00] responses to that too is first and foremost, there's many things that I couldn't do for whatever reason, this is the work that I'm drawn towards and that I feel really passionate about. But there's plenty of things that I couldn't do. So sometimes I'm talking with people and I'm like, wow, how do you do what you do?

But also I just really appreciate the opportunity to share when people are saying, oh my gosh, how do you do that? Or What is that like? Or isn't that so sad? Yes, it can be hard work, it can be sad work, but there's also so many things that I feel like are important about the work that outweighs the hard things or the sad things.

And so really being able to just have conversations like you and I are having actually, and talk about bereavement work or talk about supporting kids and teens and families through a loss. I feel like it's so important because sometimes it's a topic people shy away from, and so being able to like bring it to the forefront or say, Hey, there's a place that exists where people can get support after someone has died.

I just feel like helps build that awareness. I'm also [00:04:00] happy to talk and share with them too that they're sad pieces about the work, but it's not all sadness. There's also a lot of. Sort of hope that can come from the work and a lot of resilience that I see kind of kids, teens and adults build over time as well.

So it's sort of a, a both and kind of holding both in the work. 

Jessica Fein: And my goodness. Talk about a job where you go home at the end of the day, really knowing you have made a difference. 

Jen Noonan: I hope. I mean, that's the hope. It's one of the things I value deeply about it. It feels like very meaningful work. 

Jessica Fein: It's just interesting one of the things that we've talked about a lot on this show is that most people run in the other direction from grief, right. People who are going through it personally, people who are one step removed. I mean, as a society we're like, oh, I'm gonna, you know, go absolutely as far away from that as I can.

You on the other hand, have walked right toward it. What led you to this kind of work?

Jen Noonan: You know, it's interesting. I was just listening to a grief [00:05:00] podcast actually, with a colleague of mine from many years ago and a current colleague in the field, and he said, often people think we find the work, but really the work finds us.

And my gosh, it just resonated with me on so, so, so many levels. I think what ultimately drew me to this work was I had been working in pediatric oncology in a hospital in Boston and loved the work that I was doing there, and noticed that when families had a child die, I wondered, what does support look like for them?

Where can they go? What might it look like and how does that look different than possibly support that the hospital was offering? And it led me actually to The Children's Room 10 plus years ago as a graduate social work student. Really just wanting to know like, what does support look like? Our mission at The Children's Room is supporting kids and teens, ages three and a half to 18, who have had a parent or sibling die.

So it's pretty focused at the same time. It was sort of [00:06:00] seeing that one particular setting in a hospital and thinking, wow, what does it look like to support kids and teens through that? So that's really what brought me to the work. And you know, here I am 10 plus years later, still doing the work and there's many things that sort of keep me coming back to the work.

I have a colleague who, who refers to this work as privileged work and it is. And that's what keeps me coming back. 

Jessica Fein: I love the idea of privileged work. I have had personal experience with nurses in really intense situations as well as hospice workers, and I've thought to myself that their work is holy work, and I love that you think of your work as privileged work.

Why? What is it about it that makes you feel privileged to be doing it? 

Jen Noonan: Yeah. For me it's a couple things in particular. I mean, you know, the name of your podcast is sort of like fits for so much of this. It's sort of like, oh my gosh, I don't know how you do it. And I do get that all the time. What makes it privileged work is that I [00:07:00] choose to do it, you know, for some reason this is the work that found me.

The privilege comes in to choosing to do the work, but also being able to support families in their loss. You know, during a time that can often be the most difficult time of someone's life, being able to sort of offer support and work alongside families during what can be such a difficult time. There's privilege to that.

And that means, you know, you get to witness people's hardships and hopefully support them through that. But you also get to celebrate their joys. And part of what we're doing at the children's room is helping kids, teens and adults normalize the concept of grief and loss. You know, you talked in the beginning of this, like, oh my gosh, it's often a taboo subject.

People are often shying away from or steering away from it. And what we try to do at the children's room is kind of welcome it in. You know, grief and loss is something that everyone is going to experience in some capacity. It's universal. At the same [00:08:00] time, it's really unique and that means it's different for each person.

And so when we welcome it in and when we hopefully empower kids, teens, and adults to be able to come to our space and share their loss story with others, we're hoping that it really decreases sometimes what can feel like a really isolating time. And that it hopefully enhances a sense of connection to others who have had a a similar experience.

And I think for me that's really where the privilege comes in, being able to see the power of community and, you know, I don't wanna sugarcoat it and pretend that, you know, with loss always comes growth. I'm not trying to say that at all. At the same time, I really do witness families who cultivate and bring such strength and resilience, even if that means like I went to the grocery store today, I got dressed and went for a walk today. Part of what we're trying to do in our program is help kids, teens, and adults understand that like [00:09:00] sometimes there might be things about loss that you feel like, oh my gosh, I'm really feeling good about this today.

Or sort of feeling like I'm really conquering this and other days might feel harder and I can give an example. You know, sometimes we hear from kids, teens, adults, like, oh my gosh, I, I heard this song on the radio and I just dissolved into tears. I, I couldn't do it today. I had to turn the radio off. It was too much.

And other days it's like, I sort of sat with that and I turned it up louder and it reminded me of my person, and that felt really good. And we're trying to help kids, teens and adults understand that grief can look. Both ways, and sometimes it depends on the day, and if you can kind of go with that unknown a little bit, if you can develop coping skills to help within those harder emotions, it can kind of set you up to hopefully be able to be supported through that, whether that's supported by others or whether that's drawing on your own coping skills.

Jessica Fein: I had the privilege of visiting The [00:10:00] Children's Room and feeling what a welcoming place it is and what a supportive environment it is. And you talked a moment ago about normalizing grief, and I imagine that for people who are coming to this space, it's like a refuge. You know, they come in and they're suddenly not the only one, and they're suddenly held in this community where people really get it.

I am wondering, when we think about normalizing grief as a society, how do we move that out of these special places and into society at large? 

Jen Noonan: Yeah, it's a great question and I think you're right. It's sort of like that, The Children's Room, it's a little bit of a bubble, right? Like we always say, it's not easy.

It takes a lot of courage to walk through our blue door at the same time. That is really where the connection and community is being cultivated with and alongside others who get it on some level or who have had a similar experience. But yeah, once you walk outside those doors, it does change a little bit.

You're then immersed in the [00:11:00] society that we often say is sometimes grief insensitive or oftentimes even grief illiterate. And it's not because people don't care. It's not because they are trying to be hurtful or harmful by saying something. It's often because they don't know what to say or do. It can sometimes be a little paralyzing.

And so one of the things that we also do at the children's room is we think about, okay, how can you cultivate that education and that awareness on a larger level? We do some of that through educating professionals in the field. That could be schoolteachers, it could be guidance counselors or school counselors.

It could be professionals in hospital settings, in hospice settings, et cetera. So there's still a lot of work to be done there, but it's also part of what we really value at the children's room. Sort of how can you create a grief sensitive culture where people can know what to [00:12:00] say or do, or can be really supportive.

Jessica Fein: That is a personal passion of mine as well. It's the subject of my TED talk, which is the whole idea of becoming grief literate and how we can do that as a society and where can we learn these skills, learn what to say and what not to say. What's interesting to me is that so much of your work is with children.

And I think children are, in many respects, the best at dealing with it because they just call it like it is and say what's on their mind. The story that I actually told in my TED talk is when I was in high school and a friend's little sister died, three years old, she died and we were so nervous. When the friend of ours came back to school, what would we say to her?

I was very nervous because another friend went right up to her and said, this just totally sucks. And at the time I was like so embarrassed for that friend. I was like, this just totally sucks. Like, come on, can we not do a little better than that? And now I'm like, she knew what she was doing. Like [00:13:00] that's what we wanna hear.

No matter how old you are during grief, we want somebody who will just tell you this totally sucks. Right. So on the one hand I feel like kids will tell it like it is, and there must be something that is refreshing in that. On the other hand, I feel like for so many children, when they are faced with somebody else who is experiencing a loss, it's their first time and they may be really overwhelmed and petrified by it.

I feel like with kids, it can go either way.

Jen Noonan: Yeah, I think you're exactly right. Like sort of initially what you were speaking to. Kids and teens can be our greatest teachers. They really can, and I think I certainly see that with the kids that I work with on a daily basis who have had a parent or a sibling die.

They don't necessarily have the same taboos, honestly, around grief that we do, or the same sort of fear for the little ones anyway. You know, they're coming in and they're saying, my mom [00:14:00] died, and then they're ready to go play in our high energy room. They are coming in and saying that their brother or sister died, and then really wanting to spend time with their peers who are there, whereas.

As kids get a little bit older developmentally, that starts to look a little bit different. But I think what you said really speaks to the story you shared, speaks to saying something is often better than not saying anything and we might not get it right. I do this work and there have been many times that I have not gotten it right, but it's also about trying again.

And continuing to ask or check in and really follow the lead of the person. Trying your best to not make assumptions. You know, sometimes we hear people say like, oh my gosh, like the holidays must just be so, so hard. They just must be awful after someone has died. That might be true and. Maybe someone feels like they've really been able to commemorate the person who has died and sort of weave them into [00:15:00] traditions.

And so yes, it might feel hard, but also in a particular year it might feel like, whoa, I'm really able to remember this person in a way that feels meaningful. I. And so sometimes asking a question like in more of an expansive way, something like, I know often after a loss, the holidays can feel hard. What has it been like for you?

Helps open up a conversation versus sometimes even inadvertently close it down. But I think kids can be our best teachers because they often don't hold back in asking questions or being curious about things. And I think that's something that we can really learn from kids.

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Jessica Fein: To continue on that theme of holidays. I think sometimes we also feel.

Like it should be really hard. And then we feel guilty if it isn't and we feel judged, like, oh, well if I'm at somebody's house for Thanksgiving and they see me laughing and smiling, maybe they think I'm not missing my person. Or you know, I have to like have this veneer at all times of I am a griever. Or people will either judge me or they'll forget about my loss.

And so I think that we make it hard on each other inadvertently, and we make it really hard on ourselves. 

Jen Noonan: Yeah, exactly what you just said. Like, I'm crying too much, or I'm not crying enough. I went back to work too soon [00:17:00] or, oh my goodness, I can't believe she's still not back at work yet. And it is. It's sort of these like preconceived notions that I.

Sort of have been generationally passed down. And that's often even not a conscious thing. It's just sort of like in our society from a Western lens. Anyway, you know, oftentimes it's sort of the myth that grief has an end point or that crying is the only way to show that you are grieving. And to your point, like if you're out and socializing or at a holiday party, oh my gosh, how could you be doing this?

Shouldn't you be super sad and missing your person? And the reality is there's no timeline, there's no end point, and it looks really different for everyone. Grief can be many different things. Grief is all of the thoughts and feelings that you have after someone dies. And that means that you can both be sad and devastated and miss someone and be at a holiday party, sort of being with others and.[00:18:00] celebrating a day. Those two things can exist together. It doesn't need to be one way, although society often points us in the direction that it should look a certain way. 

Jessica Fein: Since we are saying that we think that we can learn from kids and that kids are the most curious and kids call it like it is, et cetera, it seems to me that teaching kids about loss, about grief when they're young, just as part of their education could really be a way to move our culture toward a place that is just more grief, literate, more comfortable. What would that look like when you think about it? 

Jen Noonan: Yeah, it's a great question and such, I think great, meaningful, important concept.

If I can give a couple really concrete examples. One of the ways that we describe loss to kids is that loss is a really, really, really, really, really, really, really big change. And [00:19:00] so one of the ways that you can start to get kids to think about that is helping them understand that they experience change all the time.

That they change grades each year, that they change teachers each year. Maybe they've gone to a different school. The season changes, the weather changes. Helping them know that they actually deal with change all the time is sort of like an initial steppingstone. I. Of course we're then building on that because it's not just thinking about, oh, if you are totally fine.

When it changes from winter to spring, that translates to, you know, being able to cope with a death loss. Absolutely not the case, but it is a steppingstone to then continue to build on that conversation. And so what that might look like is, has anyone ever missed someone? Maybe that's someone who moved away.

Maybe that's a friend who used to live close. Maybe it's a family member, helping them think a little bit about, oh, has this happened to me? [00:20:00] Have I ever felt this way? And then building on that from there. And some kids, I. No matter how old the age will have had a death loss experience, maybe most commonly, sometimes it's a grandparent, sometimes it's an extended family member.

But having the conversation and sort of giving steppingstones to make it relatable in some way then gives you the opportunity to say like, okay, well if you miss someone and you're feeling sad, what helps you feel better? And then they can help translate that to supporting a friend. And that's true whether they've had a death loss or not, that they can then think about, okay, well when I am sad or having a hard day, taking deep breaths help me, or talking about it helps me, or asking for a hug helps me.

I. And so we have programs at the Children's Room that focus on those types of initiatives as well as sort of wider ones that focus on what's called Children and Teens Grief Awareness Month, which is in November, which is really a kind of national campaign to recognize [00:21:00] what is unique about grief in kids and teens.

It doesn't look the same as adults. It looks really different. And so November is a time that we can acknowledge and sort of celebrate that and also spread awareness and education. 

Jessica Fein: What are some of those ways that it looks really different for kids and teens than it does for adults? 

Jen Noonan: Yeah, I mean, adults are often using words more to describe their grief, and that could be internally and externally. It doesn't mean that adults are always sharing outwardly, but we're often, you know, sharing or, or talking about grief, how it feels. Again, that could be inner dialogue or talking with someone else. Kids often have their grief come out through their behavior.

It's not always through words, and so sometimes it comes out through play. It's how kids communicate and understand the world. And so those are ways that we can see grief experiences kind of manifest maybe through play, maybe through a [00:22:00] behavior, through art, through movement that could be drawing a picture of maybe how someone died.

Or drawing a picture of your family. And that can look many different ways too. After someone has died, maybe a child is choosing to put a dad who died in the picture, even though their dad has died and acknowledging he's still part of my family is not here in the same way, but he's still part of my family.

And so sometimes we see those, actually a lot of the time we see those types of things happen in our groups. Maybe playing out how someone died too, and that could be playing that an ambulance is coming to the house and playing, going to the hospital to visit someone. Kids also come in and out of their grief experience rather quickly.

They can sort of oscillate back and forth of what we call being in a. Loss oriented space and a restorative oriented space. And so the loss-oriented space could be like maybe playing or having a deep emotion, crying [00:23:00] outwardly about, you know, the fact that someone has died and then in 30 seconds they might be ready to go outside and play, or they might be ready for a snack.

So that's also how it differs. As adults, we tend to oscillate more slowly between those lost spaces and the restorative spaces. But kids do it really quickly and that's normal, but it looks different than adult grief. 

Jessica Fein: What have the children you've worked with who are bereaved taught you about their capacity to engage with loss that adults who aren't in the field underestimate?

Jen Noonan: So much. Oh my gosh, so much. You know, the littlest ones we work with are three and a half, right up to 18-year-olds, and I think for each and every age there has been so, so, so much that I have learned around kids and teens capacity for loss, and I think across the board. The bottom line is they have the capacity to take in [00:24:00] information around a particular loss, but also to sort of integrate it into their life.

And what I mean by that is oftentimes, or sometimes adults that we talk with in the work that we do might be like, oh my gosh, how am I ever going to share that this person died with my three-and-a-half-year-old or my 7-year-old, or my 17-year-old? It's really hard to think about taking a concept. A, that's so abstract, like death, but also that's a terrible thing.

How can you possibly share that information with a child or a teen? And the reality is kids have the capacity to understand, and there's a professional in the field who has this wonderful, wonderful video. She says, you know, there have been many kids that I've worked with, and I don't think I've met one who hasn't been able to take in a story around.

Who died or how they died. And so sometimes we do underestimate what we can tell kids [00:25:00] or what we should tell them. And a lot of the times they really can be our teachers if we give them the opportunity. So oftentimes we are encouraging parents and caregivers. Give kids a choice, give them honest, age, appropriate information.

And give them a choice around what type of information they might want to engage in. And that could be like if there's a memorial service or if there's a funeral or a wake, do kids wanna participate in that? And if you can give them the choice, if you can sort of trust that they have the capacity to both understand and deal with any emotions that are coming up with support, they can do that.

They really can. 

Jessica Fein: You've been at this particular thing for 10 years in this line of work, and I'm wondering, have you seen changes in terms of the way we, in our culture, talk about grief, think about grief, engage with grief? Has there been progress?

Jen Noonan: [00:26:00] I do think there has, I, I really, really do. Absolutely. For sure.

In the past 10 years, I think I have seen that needle move. You know, I think probably the biggest change that I can easily identify was COVID, where I think as a society, grief and loss was so much more sort of part of our daily life, or kind of in our face in a different way collectively than it had been.

And so I think I've seen. People sort of in all sorts of spaces, being able to acknowledge it a little bit more. 

Jessica Fein: So switching gears a little bit, how do you maintain your own emotional wellbeing when you are doing such difficult work every single day? 

Jen Noonan: You know, I know I mentioned this being privileged work, and part of that for me is also around the privilege of being able to do it alongside a dedicated team.

I think doing it alongside others for me is incredibly restorative. Doing it alongside people who are equally [00:27:00] as passionate, equally as dedicated to the work 

Jessica Fein: But is there ever a day when you wake up and you're just like, I can't, I don't know how I can do it today? Do you have those days, or do you wake up every day feeling like, I'm gonna go be with my team and this is just privileged work and I feel energized.

I mean, you must have days. 

Jen Noonan: Oh my gosh, of course. I have days. Of course I have days. Yeah. I mean, I would be lying if I said those days didn't exist or if I said like, oh my gosh, no, there's nothing sad or hard or difficult about this work. Of, of course there is, you know, where we're working with people during really, really hard, difficult times.

And one of the things that I find is very important is to be my best self or bring my best self so that I can best support others. So the hard days are there. The hard days exist, and it's about knowing that and acknowledging that taking space when you need to. So that you can show up in a way that feels helpful and supportive.

But of [00:28:00] course those days exist. Yeah. I mean, I'm human.

Jessica Fein: When you tell people, like we were talking about at the beginning, what you do, and they have this reaction of, oh my God, I don't know how you do that, or, that must be such depressing, what do you think that says about their own relationship with loss?

Jen Noonan: Yeah, I think it speaks to, I mean, a little bit of what I was just talking about, like. I think it speaks to some of like the myths and misconceptions that are out there. I think it speaks to just people's own reactions around like, oh my gosh, that must be sort of like seeped in sadness all day, every day.

How is that something that you can possibly do? And while there are many sad, difficult parts of. Being alongside families after they've had a loss and hearing loss stories sort of again and again over time. There's also a lot of hope that comes from the work as well. And I think what I mean by that is sort of a sense of hopefulness that for me is cultivated from seeing the resilience that can be built or the community [00:29:00] that people can sort of make.

Together after such a devastating experience and seeing the support that happens between people, I think is really kind of the magic. And you know, those are things like having a brand new family walk through our doors maybe six weeks or six months after someone has died. And really being able to sort of like feel their palpable emotions.

And then the next year, maybe they're in a group and they're welcoming a brand-new person who is now six weeks or six months out. It doesn't mean that person who's a year and six months out is quote unquote better or over it, but they then have the ability to say to this brand-new person walking through the doors like I've been here.

I've been there for me. Now it feels different or like we can be in this together and I can sit here alongside you. So I think having that [00:30:00] sort of parallel process too is something that just brings so much richness to the work and so much power to the support that people are able to offer one another.

But I don't think people initially see that or know that that's what happens sort of behind the closed doors. They just assume. It's too hard to talk about. It's gonna be too sad. And no, there's no way people could ever want to talk about that. Even people who are grieving. You know, I hear that all the time.

Oh my gosh, if I ask about their person who died, it's gonna bring up too much. Or it's going to, you know, feel too sad. I, I don't wanna bring it up. And the reality is, of course, why you wanna be mindful about who you're asking and when you're asking, and where you're asking, and how you're asking in my experience.

You're not reminding someone of something they aren't already thinking about, likely, if not all day, every day for the majority of a day or a week or a month. You know, it's taking up an all likelihood time and, [00:31:00] and space in their brain and asking isn't reminding them of something that they're not already thinking about.

Jessica Fein: It's giving them an invitation to talk about what they're thinking about anyway. 

Jen Noonan:Yeah. 

Jessica Fein: You've been doing this for 10 years, and before that you were in pediatric oncology, which is not in and of itself light work. Has your perspective on mortality changed from doing this work? And if so, how does that impact your own approach to living?

Jen Noonan: It's a great question. Absolutely. I work at a bereavement center. I talk with kids, teens and adults all the time about things that happened, terrible things that they didn't expect. And even if someone had an illness, let's say, and it was anticipated that somebody could die, it's still something really unexpected for a child or teen or even adult, to experience the losses that that we see in this work day to day.

So it undoubtedly shapes kind of my outlook and yes, probably how I live my life. I think what I would say about [00:32:00] that is one, it, it sort of teaches me that life is precious. You know, you sort of talk with people day in and day out and, and hear their stories, and it's a reminder that. Unexpected things can happen.

So I think one of the things that it helps me value is sometimes just the little day-to-day things. Those things that aren't such a big deal, but can be really like those precious gems in life. There's a quote, I won't get it right, but you know, it's something about like one day you look back and realize that the big things were actually the little things.

And I think that's part of what this work teaches me too. You know, I think it also helps me realize like, don't sweat the small stuff. Like there's really things that happen in life each and every day that are really hard and difficult and also really wonderful too. And so I try to let the small stuff go and, and not sort of harp too much on that.

But I think my bigger answer is how it has changed my life or how I live my life or what I [00:33:00] get from it is really around, like, it has shaped my perspective just in a much larger way. And my hope is that that perspective of knowing that hard things can happen and the importance of getting support through that can help me both continue to support others, but can help me have.

What I feel like is a really valued perspective on life, and it's why I call it privileged work because I feel like there's so much that I gain from doing it. 

Jessica Fein: Well, I think that the work you're doing goes right in that same basket as the nurses and hospice workers that I was mentioning earlier. I do think it's holy work, and I am so glad that you shared it with us today, and so glad that the people who are walking through that bright door at the children's room get to see you and others like you.

And I know that you're just making such a big difference. So thanks for sharing it with us and thanks for doing this important work. 

Jen Noonan: Thank you so much. It's truly a privilege and just really appreciated the space to [00:34:00] be here with you today. And talk a little bit about what I do. 

Jessica Fein: Here are my takeaways from the conversation with Jen.

Number one, saying something is usually better than saying nothing at all. Nobody expects our words to be perfect and silence can feel even more isolating than getting the words a little bit wrong. 

Number two, grief isn't always visible. People may look okay and be carrying enormous pain. 

Number three, kids grieve differently than adults. They often express their grief through play, behavior, or art, not just words. 

Number four, there's no one right way to grieve. It's not linear. It doesn't follow a timeline. Grief can look like tears. One minute and laughter the next. 

And number five, model curiosity and openness. Asking what has this been like for you is often more powerful than assuming, you know, if this conversation resonated with you.

Check out my TEDx talk on grief literacy where I explore how we can all do a better job showing up for one another through life's hardest moments. You can find that on [00:35:00] YouTube or at the link in my show notes. 

Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoy the show, I'd be so grateful if you take a minute to subscribe, rate and review. That's the very best way we can make sure that it continues to grow. And if you know somebody who's grieving or somebody who wants to support a griever, send this episode their way. Have a great day. Talk to you next time.