Jessica Fein: Welcome. I'm Jessica Fein, and this is the “I Don't Know How You Do It” podcast, where we talk to people whose lives seem unimaginable from the outside and dive into how they're able to do things that look undoable. I'm so glad you're joining me on this journey, and I hope you enjoy the conversation. 

Welcome back to the show. Today's guest, Susan Altman, is truly extraordinary. Her story is one of persistence, devotion, and an unbreakable sisterly bond. It is a story that seems made for tv, something we'd watch on “Dateline” about horrific tragedy and a relentless search for truth.

And in fact, Susan's story was featured on “Dateline.” You might have seen it there. Now Susan is the last [00:01:00] person who ever imagined her life would be on tv. She describes herself as quote, a regular gal who grew up in a small town in Indiana as a proud Jew. She has a wonderful husband, three amazing adult daughters, and a very full life as part of her community.

Susan and her sister Stacy were best friends. They talked on the phone three times a day and imagined growing altogether until one Sunday afternoon when Stacey was found dead in the bathtub with the shower running. Uh, right from that first minute, Susan believed that there was something sinister at play.

And what followed was a seven-year journey through grief, suspicion, and an unwavering determination to uncover the truth that authorities didn't see. Today we hear the first part of Susan's story, how she channeled her devastation into detective work, refusing to accept the undetermined verdict when her intuition screamed murder.

It's a testament to [00:02:00] sisterly love that reached beyond the grave, and a reminder that sometimes the most important evidence resides in the heart of someone who refuses to give up. I'm currently working with Susan to transform this extraordinary story into a book because this is so much bigger than a TV segment or podcast episode, which you will see for yourself.

Without further ado. I bring you Susan Altman.

Hi Susan. 

I'm so, so honored and ready for this conversation. Thank you for joining us today. 

Susan Altman: It is my pleasure. Thanks for having me. 

Jessica Fein: Tell us about your sister. Stacy, tell us about your relationship. You know, I totally get the relationship of a sister who's not only a sister, but also a best friend, and I love that that's what you and Stacy had too.

Tell us about her. 

Susan Altman: Sure. Thanks for asking. My little sister was, [00:03:00] is the best person in the whole wide world. She has these bright blue eyes and she shines all the time and she's got this huge smile. And she's just, she was full of life and the funniest person I've ever known. I'm one of three girls, she's in the middle, and she just kept us rolling all the time.

We knew that she was gonna be a comedian at some point. Practical jokes were her favorite thing. She's kind and caring, and she was like a little Martha Stewart. She's so creative and I'm not creative at all. So she was the one who helped with anything that I needed help with creatively. So like when I had to do my kids' bat mitzvah, she helped with all of the decorations.

She's the glue that kept everybody together in. Any part of her life, whether it was with me or with her friends or with her family, she kept the glue together with all of our cousins, and she's just a huge presence in so many people's [00:04:00] lives that she has really left a hole in all of our hearts, and as my best friend and my little sister.

She was there for me morning, noon, and night. She was cheering for my kids all the time when I, you know, might've had my doubts. I just had to call her and, and she would say, you know what? It's gonna be okay and she's gonna be okay. And now I don't have that. 

Jessica Fein: And it wasn't only that she was there for you, but you were there for her in her lifetime.

And in all these years since. Take us back to the evening where you got the phone call from your father. 

Susan Altman: Sure. It was March 1st. It was a Sunday. It was really cold outside here in Boston, and we were getting ready to go to a futsal game, which was a sport that my middle daughter Lily was playing at the time.

Jessica Fein: Can I just interject there and say, that was not a misspeak? Apparently there actually is a sport called futsal, and when Susan was telling me about it all this time, I kept thinking she meant football. But it turns out futsal is a thing [00:05:00] 

Susan Altman: And it's a really cool sport. It's an indoor soccer on a basketball court, and it's really fun.

And I used to love going to watch Lily play this game, and so when the phone rang, I didn't answer the phone. I'm notoriously late for everything. So of course we were late for getting to futsal and I didn't wanna answer the phone. And back in the day, this was a, a phone that plugged into the wall. And it said Arthur Malman is calling.

And that's my dad. And I, you know, didn't wanna pick up because I was late. And one of the kids ended up picking up the phone and said, it's grandpa, he needs to talk to you. And I got the phone call, I said, “Dad, what's going on?” He said, “Stacy's dead.” And that was it. Like that was it. And I said, “What do you mean?”

And he said, “I don't know, but she's dead.” And really that was all he could say to me. And I immediately like stopped and screamed and had to go somewhere else in the house where the kids couldn't hear me and I just started screaming. [00:06:00] He did it. He did it, he did it. And it was at that moment that I knew that her husband had killed her.

And I was kind of waiting for it because I always suspected that he was gonna do something to her. I just had this bad feeling about him for a very, very long time, and I never acted on that feeling because that was crazy and didn't think that I could ever say anything out loud. 

Jessica Fein: Well, let's talk about that because it is not an expected response to think the person closest to you that her spouse is the one who did it. So what was it about him? Tell us about why you always had some kind of feeling. What gave you insight to feel? The sky's no good. The sky's dangerous. And the flip side is why did you keep that to yourself? 

Susan Altman: You know, those are really good questions.

And it's funny because when I think about what my answer is today. And what I knew back then, it's very [00:07:00] different because I have a much better understanding of what her relationship was like even though I was living it with her for the almost 10 years that they were married. You know, we talked on the phone three times a day.

We talked every single night, and I knew it was happening in their relationship. I knew that she wasn't happy. I knew that she tried to leave him a lot of times. I knew that he was unfaithful. She knew that he was unfaithful, and I knew that I didn't like the way he was calling all the shots and that he also would never, ever, ever compromise with her.

He got his way all the time, but I didn't know what that was. So while I always had this pit in my stomach when we were talking about him, I didn't put two and two together. And so what I realized is that I wanted to be available to her all the time [00:08:00] and to, you know, help her talk through her things. But this guy just, he, he just never treated her the right way.

I mean, I remember that one of their biggest fights was when they moved into a new apartment and couldn't decide where to put the garbage can in the kitchen. And Stacy wanted the garbage can in one place and he wanted it a different place, and they could not compromise to the point where she actually moved out.

This was before they were married. She moved out and moved into my parents' house for about a week. Like that was a red flag, right? Red flag. Red flag. Stacy. Yeah. I never said that and I never kind of let her know what I thought about him. I would go visit with my kids. I would go to their house in Colorado for about a month.

When the kids were little, we would have Camp Stacy and my older sister. I would call her crying every summer, just so upset. And Liz would say to me, why do you keep going back? Why do you keep going back? [00:09:00] And I said, I have to go back because if I don't go back and help her and take care of her, who's going to do that?

So that was my role. I mean, I, I, I had to take care of her. I was a big sister. 

Jessica Fein: Oh, I so get that. I so get it. And I wonder, number one, did Liz, your older sister, share these feelings, these reservations? And number two, did you ever suspect that he was violent with her? 

Susan Altman: I don't think he was violent with her. I do think Stacy would've told me if that were happening, and I do think Stacy would have not stayed if he ever touched her, and I don't think he was, you know, ever violent to the children either Liz and I, my older sister, Liz, we didn't talk about it too much because in some ways I didn't want to break Stacey's trust and confidence.

And the things that she shared with me, and I didn't really want to bring Liz to the level that I was at because I knew somebody had to [00:10:00] not know all the secrets to be able to help me make decisions for her. Does that make sense?

Jessica Fein: Yeah, I get it. It's such a tricky, tricky spot you were in. So let's go back.

So you get the call. All you find out is that Stacy's dead. You don't know anything else at this point. But you have this gnawing feeling, so then you and your family, your children and your husband go to Denver, where Stacy lived. 

Susan Altman: Yeah, I am lucky that I have a village here in Boston and I called three friends.

Well, a lot more than that, but I had three good friends who took each one of my children that night and helped them pack, and even took 'em to, you know, CVS to get candy for the plane. And my house was just like it. It could have been a party. There were so many people there. I sat in one chair, crying, crying, crying, crying, crying.

And then we finally got on the plane. I was sobbing [00:11:00] like uncontrollably for for days, for hours. I had a hoodie on and I just put my hood over my head and tried to put one foot in front of the other. I couldn't imagine what was going on. And when we got to Colorado, my parents lived in Colorado at the time.

And so Stacy's kids were seven and eight at the time of her death, and they were at my parents' house with their father, and I couldn't even look at him. He gave me like my body just tensed up when I was near him, and I felt like there was something, there was something going on. Like in the back of my mind.

I knew he killed her and I couldn't say that to anybody. And I lived with this weird feeling like, here I am at Stacey's funeral and I think he killed her, and nobody's telling me what happened. And the paramedics who came to help her couldn't say anything of what happened to [00:12:00] her. And I, I was just walking around in a daze.

I, I wasn't sleeping, I wasn't eating my whole body shut down. 

Jessica Fein: What did they tell you that Stacy was in her house. And what did they say happened? I mean, there must have been something that the paramedic said, or that the husband said. What did you know in terms of what the people on the scene were sharing?

Susan Altman: At that time, nobody shared anything. Nobody shared anything. Diablo, Stacy's husband said he... 

Jessica Fein: Okay. And just to pause, I will share with listeners that we do not refer to this individual by name. He is only known as El Diablo or Diablo. So that's who we're talking about here, 

Susan Altman: which means the devil in Spanish.

So Diablo didn't seem to have a lot of emotion that first time I saw him. Honestly, I don't even think I went up and gave him a hug when I saw him. I couldn't really be in his space for fear of what I was gonna say to him, because what I [00:13:00] wanted to say is, what did you do to her? And there were a few different stories that came out that day about what happened, but the bottom line was.

He picked up the kids at Sunday school and took them out for a couple hours and then came home around three in the afternoon and the shower was running and he didn't, you know, go upstairs to see her in the shower. And he said that he came home and found her collapsed. They had a bathtub shower and it also had the track doors, not like a shower curtain.

So he said that he found her in the bathtub and she had collapsed. And I sort of heard things about cardiac arrest or he said that she had had a lot of edibles the night before and that morning, and maybe it was pot related. I, you know, there was no like clear story. I. And the paramedics didn't really have anything either that I knew of at that time.

This was also right when Natasha Richardson [00:14:00] had died on a ski slope from hitting her head, and I did hear from Diablo that they were at a party the night before and it was really icy, and she did fall. And I kept asking him, did she hit her head? Did she hit her head? And he said he didn't know. So I didn't get a lot of information about what happened, and I had just spoken to her the day before and she was happy and healthy and couldn't have sounded better.

So something was not adding up.

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Jessica Fein: So it's a day or two after you've arrived in Denver and Diablo comes to you and says, I wanna go back to the house and get some things for the kids. Will you come with me?  

Susan Altman: He did. He did. Listen, Diablo didn't like me just as much as I didn't like him. I think that's important for everybody to know that he saw through me and he knew that I was onto him, and so that really put a wedge between our relationship for many, many years.

And so I told him that I would go to the house with him. I wanted to see for myself what the house looked like. When I got there, he sort of led me straight to the bedroom and we were just sitting in that space and I got this weird feeling like she's supposed to be here. All her stuff is [00:16:00] here, everything is lined up on her dresser.

And I sat down on the edge of the bed. The bed was all made, which was strange to me because Diablo never made the bed, and I didn't understand how the bed was made. And when I was sitting on the edge of her bed, I noticed a big like water stain on the carpet, and I asked him what that was because what I had heard at that point was that he came home, she was collapsed in the shower.

I. He pulled her out and tried to revive her, but he wouldn't have been able to pull her from the bathroom to the bedroom. So I didn't understand what this big stain was. And he said, well, that's where the paramedics brought her body to try to work on her and revive her, and that they intubated her and that when they pulled the tube out, that must have been the liquid that came out of her body.

It just didn't make sense to me. The house was clean. There's a big water stain, [00:17:00] like blood, water on the floor and everything else in the bathroom was the way. It was like he didn't clean up her side of the bathroom. 

Jessica Fein: So this just is like making you think all the more, so this is not right. Something's going on, something's going on.

And so you have the funeral, which he orchestrates. He plans every little bit of it. 

Susan Altman: The whole thing. It was so upsetting. That he did not ask any family member to help him make any of the decisions. I remember I said one thing to him. I've been to several funerals in my life, and the moment that you walk into the a sanctuary for a funeral is that dead quiet is really debilitating.

And I asked him if we could just play some of her favorite Jewish songs. Quietly in the background. And he said, no, like that was the one thing I wanted. And he said no. And then at that point, I stopped offering help [00:18:00] or inserting any of my opinions. 

Jessica Fein: So the funeral ends. You sit Shiva, 

Susan Altman: We sit Shiva. 

Jessica Fein: and then your family leaves.

They go back to Boston. People dissipate as they do. You're still in Denver and you're getting ready to go back to Boston when you go to the cemetery. 

Susan Altman: I went to the cemetery. I didn't really know what to do at the cemetery, and one of my aunts drove me there and I sat down right next to the dirt and I was kind of feeling her, and all of a sudden I sat up and I said to my aunt, something's not right.

She just told me that this isn't right and that I have to do something. And I didn't know what that meant, and my aunt, who also knew Diablo quite well and didn't favor him, told me that she sort of had suspicions also, and that she wanted me to call the homicide department. And I couldn't even [00:19:00] wrap my head around that, even though she was validating my feelings.

And so I left a message for the homicide department. The person who had investigated the case wasn't there at that time, and he called me back. And when he called me back, I was back at Stacey's house already, and I remember I stepped outta the house and I paced up and down the street for an hour and a half while Detective Denison listened to me spew and cry and tell him all the reasons why I fought.

My sister's husband killed her, and I remember saying over and over again, I know you must think I'm just a bereaved sister. I know you think I'm just crazy. I know you think I'm just grieving, but I'm, I'm telling you, I really think that he killed her and he was so respectful and listened to me for a really long time.

And that was the beginning of my relationship with Detective Denison, my hero. So then what [00:20:00] happens? I get back to Boston and I am barely able to function and I keep calling Detective Denison and he keeps telling me we have to wait for the autopsy to do anything, and the autopsy's supposed to take a couple weeks.

It ended up taking six weeks and it came back with an undetermined death. 

Jessica Fein: What does that even mean, undetermined death? How is it that a death can be undetermined? 

Susan Altman: Exactly. That was exactly my question. Right? People don't just die. You have to die for a reason. So there's a medical reason or suicide or murder. Or undetermined. So they couldn't figure out. They couldn't figure out if it was suicide. They couldn't figure out if it was murder and they couldn't figure out if it was natural. Cause it wasn't natural causes. Actually nothing in her autopsy. Nothing medically made her die and. I didn't understand that and I, I showed the autopsy to a friend of mine in Boston who's a [00:21:00] medical examiner, and she said it seems suspicious to me, especially because she had petechia under the eye and petechia is a sign of strangulation and suffocation, and she saw the petechia.

The medical examiner who did the autopsy also saw the petechia, but said it wasn't bad enough. 

Jessica Fein What is petechia? 

Susan Altman: So petechia is under the skin, bruising that under the eyes so that they can see it in an autopsy, but we couldn't see it on the outside. 

Jessica Fein Got it. Okay. 

Susan Altman: And so after she said that I was going to Denver a few weeks later and I asked the detective if we could meet with the medical examiner and he said yes, and he would actually, he set up the appointment for us.

So we met with the medical examiner. It was, I. Me, the detective, my parents, and my uncle Michael. My uncle Michael is in Denver, lives in Denver. He's not practicing now, but he's an ER doc [00:22:00] and he's the medical go-to in the family. And he also did not favor Diablo and was helping me kind of put things together.

So when we meant to meet with the medical examiner, we found out that the person who did Stacy's autopsy was a fellow. She was in a fellowship. And her supervisor was also at the meeting and every single question we asked, they couldn't answer. So even like simple things like, well, what time did she die?

They said, well, we don't know because you only know what time of death on tv. That's really not a thing, and that's not necessarily true. So every time we wanted to get more information, they just said they didn't know. And that was really frustrating because with an undetermined death. Randy, the, the detective couldn't do anything.

They assigned a prosecutor to her case to work with Randy, [00:23:00] and that person is also my hero. Maggie Convoy, let me call her whenever I wanted. Eventually she told me that she knew that her husband murdered her, but they, they didn't have enough evidence. So here I am sitting with this knowledge. That the prosecutor thinks her husband killed her, but she couldn't do anything.

Jessica Fein: Okay. So just to orient us in time when the prosecutor tells you Yes, I think Stacy's husband did kill her, but I need more proof. How long after the death was this, when the prosecutor said that to you? 

Susan Altman: It was about three months. 

Jessica Fein: Three months. Okay. And at that point, did Diablo know there was a prosecutor involved?

Susan Altman: Diablo never knew. 

Jessica Fein: Okay, so you find out, yes, we are listening to you. We are hearing you. Which first of all, thank God. 'cause as you said a moment ago, they could have just thought you were the hysterical sister. Right? 

They're taking you seriously. They're saying there's things that don't make sense here.

There's things [00:24:00] that don't add up. We have our suspicions too, but we need evidence, right? So how were you going to get that evidence? 

Susan Altman: I started by doing my research on “Dateline.” I watched “Dateline” over and over and over again, and I would see an episode, for example, where somebody murdered their spouse with antifreeze.

And so I would see this episode and I would text Detective Denison in the middle of the night when I was watching “Dateline” all the time, and I said, did they check for antifreeze? Like I, I kept calling him, did you check for this? Did you check for that? And, you know, there was no response. And Jessie, year after year, now I am barely functioning.

I'm trying to be a mother, I'm trying to work, I'm trying to, you know, put one foot in front of the other. And then I have people in my life saying, you have to stop grieving and live your life, because that's what she would [00:25:00] want you to do. And you are ruining your children's life by, you know, still being in this place of devastation and you're ruining your, you know, your family's life and you have to stop grieving.

Some people knew that I was pursuing legal action against him and they, these family members thought that it was never going to come to fruition and that I was. Really stuck ruining my life and that I needed to stop pursuing the case and just begin to live my life. And luckily, I had that great relationship with the detective and the prosecutor that they stuck by me and supported me, and they never closed the case.

They were just waiting. And one day the answer fell in our lap. 

Jessica Fein: First of all, how long at this point are we after the death? 

Susan Altman: We're about three years out. 

Jessica Fein: Three years out. My goodness. All right. What happened? 

Susan Altman: So unfortunately one of [00:26:00] my family members passed away unexpectedly, and my aunt was at the Shiva in San Francisco, and my aunt was talking to one of her cousins who said.

So remember now this is three years later and nobody in my family is talking about the fact that Sister Susan thinks that Stacey was murdered by her husband. So my aunt is talking to one of her cousins who happens to be an expert in domestic violence. And the fact that we never, anybody in our family ever put two and two together to reach out to this person.

Kind of like in hindsight was like, what were we thinking anyway? She said, I know somebody who's in this field and I want to ask her if she'll take a look at the autopsy. And that's where the rest of the heroes come in. And my aunt gave this autopsy to somebody at the Alliance for Hope International.

They [00:27:00] have Dr. Smock, who is an expert in strangulation and suffocation. He's a medical doctor. He's not a pathologist, but he is a doctor and studies this and has seen autopsy after autopsy after autopsy. He looked at it and he said, I know it's murder and I'll be your expert witness. I. And I'm gonna write a report for you to give to the prosecutor to see if she'll take the case now. 

Jessica Fein: The sense of validation you must have felt at that point is just overwhelming. 

Susan Altman: I'll never forget it. I will never, ever forget it. It was like I won. I won all my work paid off. Somebody was listening to me and the guy was gonna be arrested. I just couldn't believe it. 

Jessica Fein: What Susan didn't know that first day at the cemetery or when Diablo was arrested was how long the road to Justice would be even after the [00:28:00] arrest.

It would take another four years, seven years in total before Diablo finally faced consequences for what he had done. But this story doesn't end with the conviction. In next week's episode, we'll reveal the motive behind Diablo's calculated actions and how Susan transformed her personal tragedy into purpose becoming a fierce advocate for other families trapped in the purgatory of undetermined deaths.

I hope you'll tune back in next week to hear the rest of Susan's story. Thanks so much for listening. Have a great day. 

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