Transcript
Jessica Fein: Welcome. I'm Jessica Fein, and this is the “I Don’t Know How You Do It” podcast, where we talk to people whose lives seem unimaginable from the outside and dive into how they're able to do things that look undoable. I’m so glad you're joining me on this journey and I hope you enjoy the conversation.
Welcome back to the show. When I first read about my guest today's story, I knew I had to have her on the show because all I kept thinking was, I do not know how you did that. When Mimi Zieman was a young medical student in New York City, she received an invitation to join an elite climbing team attempting a new route up the treacherous east face of Mount Everest without supplemental oxygen.
Not only that, she would be the only woman in the group, [00:01:00] and the sole doctor for the expedition. She shares all of this in her new book, Tap Dancing on Everest. And in today’s conversation, Mimi takes us behind the scenes, sharing insights about pushing past self doubt, how the life or death stakes of Everest cracked her open to deeper questions of identity, purpose, and what it truly means to feel alive.
You’ll hear her incredible tales of tap dancing in psychedelic tights on a boulder, leading a Passover Seder at 20, 000 feet, and the grueling real world consequences of simple things, like needing to pee. Whether you are an adventurer or hate leaving your living room couch, I guarantee Mimi's hard won wisdom and candidly beautiful writing will expand your perspective on taking risks, Embracing Vulnerability and Living Authentically.
I am so excited to introduce you to Mimi Zieman.
Welcome Mimi. I am so excited to have you on the show and to dive into talking about your book.
Mimi Zieman: Thank you. I'm so delighted to be with you, Jessie.
Jessica Fein: Well, I have to tell you, I [00:02:00] read your book recently and it has stuck with me to the point of it's showing up in my dreams. And as we'll talk about, it's quite the adventure story and it's quite different from my everyday life.
So it's kind of fun to be able to go to sleep and dream of myself in this grand adventure. So thank you for that.
Mimi Zieman: Well, thank you for feeling that way. That's wonderful.
Jessica Fein: So let's talk about the story. You were a young medical student in New York City when you were invited to become the doctor and only woman on a team attempting a new route on the remote east face of Everest in Tibet.
Yes. That is true. That is true. Okay. And not only was this trek only attempted once before, but your team was going to do it without any supplemental oxygen.
Mimi Zieman: Yes. So it had been attempted twice before us by large teams and only on [00:03:00] the second attempt did they make the summit. My climbing team wanted to have a much smaller team, use no oxygen, use no sherpa support and find a new route up the mountain.
And the thing is that new routes are rare on mountaineering expeditions and they're, you know, like a feather in the cap of anybody who can do it, but they were very bold and audacious. And I say in the book, I suppose that's why it didn't faze them that much to have a medical student taking care of them, if they were that brazen to take a new route.
But for me, of course, I'm very honest about, you know, how terrifying it was for me, who was so out of my element, and especially taking on that big role.
Jessica Fein: I have to ask you, why did you say yes? I mean, if you wanted an adventure, it seems like there are a lot of adventures you could do that might have been more kind of guaranteed.
Why yes?
Mimi Zieman: That's a great question. So earlier in the book, I write about how I backpacked alone in Nepal a couple of years earlier. So that was sort of my first risky adventure. [00:04:00] And, you know, I was a city girl, I was raised in Manhattan by immigrant parents who came off the boat. We weren't a Colorado family hiking in the hills every, every weekend.
But that first trip I was just driven, like internally, like I needed to get to the Himalayas. And I went, you know, and I didn't even have a real backpack. I borrowed one. It was a suitcase that had straps on it. But I was a new person in the mountains and that became addictive, you know, I felt instantly happier.
I still do. Instant joy, a vibrancy I don't have in my regular life. It's still puzzling that I haven't managed to live in the mountains yet. I will hopefully someday. But that's really why I said yes, and even though the invitation came actually after my first year of medical school, so I knew almost no medicine.
And it was, oh, will you be ready, actually the words were, will you be ready to fix up climbers in need in 1988. It was September of 86, so it was about a year and a half away, and I thought, ha, ha, ha, that's ridiculous, of course not, [00:05:00] ha, ha, ha, and then, you know, made it happen because the pull was just too great, I, I just could not pass up this once in a lifetime opportunity.
Jessica Fein: Okay. So I guess I can see why you would say yes, but also why, I mean, no offense, but why did they ask you? I mean, presumably there were a lot of people who might have had, you know, at least a credential if not more credentials. Why did they seek you?
Mimi Zieman: Yeah, that's a great question. And I asked the leader who was my friend at the time, Robert, already.
Can't you get a real doctor who's good with altitude because basically I met some of these climbers when I was hiking alone in Nepal and they were impressed that I was doing this big trip on my own and that I adapted really well to altitude and I think Robert saw a resilience in me. I mean, I called him last year to ask him again because, you know, it's when you like look through your life and look at it more closely on your own and you say, what?
Wait, why did he ask me? Like, I'm thinking about me. Why did I go? But, and his [00:06:00] explanation was that when he met me, he just knew that I could do one of these things. You know, so I thank him at the end that he saw something in me I didn't know was there.
Jessica Fein: It's so interesting. I hear that. We all hear that a lot, even in more conventional settings, you know, let's say like in a corporate job or something where somebody will present an opportunity to somebody and that person will say they saw in me something I didn't yet see in myself.
It's very interesting.
Mimi Zieman: It is interesting and part of why I wanted to write this book in particular was that I think as women in general, we underestimate ourselves. You know, I did not feel ready. I didn't think that I could do this and I write a lot about that in the book, but you've seen the studies where men don't necessarily feel that way.
And that, you know, sometimes we just have to jump in and it really is stretching outside our comfort zone. It really is. We don't feel ready, but that's where we grow. That's the space we grow in. And that's one of the reasons I really wanted to write the book.
Jessica Fein: Yeah. And I read something just, I think, yesterday that said, you don't do something because you have the [00:07:00] confidence to do it.
You have the confidence because you've done it.
Mimi Zieman: Yeah. That's a great quote. Yeah. And you know, Brene Brown is so good at writing about these things. Exactly. Courage isn't about feeling confident and brave. It's about feeling the fear and going forward anyway. And embracing that vulnerability and you know, the people who know me have read the book always say they're surprised at how much I reveal or how vulnerable I am.
But to me, like, that's the point of it. Like, that's why I'm sharing the story that I was not some ha ha ha, cocky, I can do this person.
Jessica Fein: That would be kind of a boring book anyway. So I'm glad that you've shared the vulnerability. And you just were mentioning, you know, having that doubt. ahead of time, but really, while you were there, you certainly had moments of imposter syndrome, which so many of us have in so many different aspects of our lives, and you had moments of doubt along the way.
And yet, there you were, really in this, not only your own life and death situation, but where you're responsible for other [00:08:00] people's lives. How in that intensity did you deal with those feelings of doubt and imposter syndrome when you were in it?
Mimi Zieman: I think I often, and I write in the book about how I would take out my medical books and study.
Often, like every day, I would recheck myself. I had so many notes. I still have the notes. So I think that's my default anyway, to just try being extra prepared. Even I write it in the book about going to therapy before going to the mountain because I was so full of doubt and thinking this is a terrible mistake.
And the therapist said, focus on what you've done so far in your preparation. That's always my fallback. Grit, put your head down, work hard, do the best you can, sort of thing. But yeah, I felt a lot of doubt on the mountain, and I felt lonely as the only woman often, which I write about too. And that's another reason I wanted to write the story, is that I feel that it's a feminist story in a way, that sometimes you don't want to be the only other kind of person, the only minority, or the only woman.
I was also the only Jewish person. I was [00:09:00] also the youngest person, but you can do that too, you know? I would just listen to Joni Mitchell and listen to Joan Armatrading and I would just kind of get back up my feminine energy. I so miss just being able to talk to women friends and I wanted to say, what would you do?
What would you do? The boys are eating all the food and I can't get any.
Jessica Fein: Yeah. And it was easier for them to pee. You write about that.
Mimi Zieman: I do. A whole challenge of how would I also use a pee bottle and I have to get out into the minus 30 degree temperature in the middle of the night.
Jessica Fein: Speaking of which, I kind of love that that wasn't an issue for them because look, in order to have this audacious goal of attempting to find a new route and to do it without You got to be kind of a, you know, I would think macho bravado kind of guy, a macho bravado kind of person.
And then you have these group of men who sought not only a medical student, but they sought a woman. So I think that's interesting and progressive for them.
Mimi Zieman: Yeah, and it's mostly [00:10:00] Robert, the expedition leader. I don't know that the other people had much of a choice. And again, my perspective now, I realize, you know what, little climbs like theirs, there were only four climbers on the team.
They often don't have a medical person at all. So, you know, maybe it wasn't so outrageous. And the other thing about them was, I mean, part of why I think I felt so lonely at times, they were so focused on the climb. They were so absorbed. I mean, really, all they did is look at the mountain and talk about the mountain and talk about every climb they ever did.
They weren't really thinking about me for most of the time. Until they needed you. Until they needed me. Yeah. And that's when we bonded and became a family. And that's when I felt really more of an equal with them, like more of a respected member of the team. That's awesome. So I wanted to tell that kind of story, too, where someone is often in the background, in the shadows, and their story doesn't seem as important.
You know, we're used to reading mountaineering stories by the climbers, and they're amazing, and I love those stories, and you know, they're so [00:11:00] brave and adventurous. But what are the other people doing there? Do they have anything interesting to say?
Jessica Fein: I'm so glad you did. And I think about that a lot with entertainment, right?
You see the, you know, eight people who were the stars of a show. And I have a friend who's in production and seeing the huge teams that go into making something and you never see them, right? You only see the public face. So this is kind of similar. Absolutely. Yes. And you mentioned a moment ago, not only were you the only Jew, I loved when you were comparing the dancing you were doing in Tibet to the Israeli folk dancing.
I grew up with Israeli folk dancing too, so I could really envision that.
Mimi Zieman: Yeah, it was so important for me to write about my Judaism because also I don't think there are that many Jewish adventure stories. And I really wanted to connect my experience to my family and what they had been through. They were immigrants, and my father was the only survivor of the Holocaust from his family.
And they transmitted some [00:12:00] kind of grit through that and some kind of survival instinct, and also some kind of sense that you may not be rooted where you are, so you are always searching for that other destination. Just a lot of themes. And also, because so many of the Holocaust survivors are kind of dying out, for lack of a better term, what's called the next generation, or the children of them, their stories, like mine, are now coming out and talking about how their stories affected us.
So that was important to me. And then, because this is a coming of age story, which is really a search for identity, you know, where does my background and my Judaism fit into that? I was so drawn to the Himalayas and Buddhism, learning new things, and yet also rooted in my Judaism. And so I tried to make that a through line so that even when our first day that we got to base camp, you know, I looked up in the sky, there was a full moon.
And I was like, Oh my gosh, it's Passover tonight. and quickly rummaged around and made a seder and had all the guys sit [00:13:00] around and listen to me.
Jessica Fein: I loved that scene. And I was trying to imagine what was going on in their minds during that.
Mimi Zieman: Yeah. So they loved it. And that brought us closer. And you know, what's so funny is that we were such a small team.
I think when people think of Everest, they think of these long lines they see nowadays. So on our expedition, there were four climbers, a photographer, and me. We had a cook from Nepal who stayed in base camp, but we were mostly at advanced base camp. And we hired a local Tibetan person to, to help. So a year after our trip, Stephen Venables wrote the first book about our expedition called Alone at the Summit.
Actually, it's, that was one of the titles. It has two editions. And then in 2000, Ed Webster wrote a book that's like a magnum opus. It's called Snow in the Kingdom. Gorgeous, gorgeous book. And I, at the time I thought, gosh, what's taking you so long? 2000? And this was in 1988? Never thinking I'd write a book.
So I actually read about what they thought about my Seder and things. And it's very funny to read about yourself in [00:14:00] other people's books, you know, but they really appreciated it. And it was one of those moments that brought me closer to them.
Jessica Fein: How long was the expedition? How long did the whole thing take you from start to finish?
Mimi Zieman: Yes. So we left in February of 1988 and I came home in June. So that's the other thing is because it was a different era and because the East Face is such a remote face of Everest, it was longer again than you imagine these things taking today. And also we were isolated the whole time. We didn't see any other Westerners for the couple of months that we were out there.
It was just kind of us in the middle of this snowy wilderness.
Jessica Fein: One of the things that I love about memoir is that the story can be so particular and yet there are these universal themes. And, as you mentioned, you write about growing up with your father, who's a Holocaust survivor, and that you learned from him that “life can crumble in an instant.”
And as you put it, “so you might as well live [00:15:00] fiercely,” and you said, quote, “maybe the wilder the better.” You also wrote, and I'm going to quote you, you didn't “realize then that the real challenge is to figure out how to live fully and with uncertainty. In everyday life. Now I realize that living and loving while knowing all could be lost is the essence of the greatest aliveness.”
I've got to tell you, those two passages stopped me. I felt like I was reading something that was so core to my experience, which could not be further from Tibet, but, you know, as the mother who has experienced so much loss, this whole notion of figuring out how to live fully with uncertainty, I mean, that's core to who I am and everything that I write about now, and I'm wondering all these years later, what Have these lessons stuck with you and become core to who you are or were they more things that in the majesty and the isolation of that experience came to you and [00:16:00] then went away?
Mimi Zieman: I think it's a core challenge that we all live with every day. I mean, we all have to face our fears and choose what risks we're going to take every day. And the older we get, we realize we don't have control and we can't control as much as we want. And everyone who has children, I mean, I want to make my kids happy all the time.
I can't, I don't have that kind of control. I want to Make myself happy all the time. I don't have that control. I wrote that because I could see it in my through line and my story from my parents and what I experienced there. And yes, what I continue to experience every day. You have a book coming out. I have this book coming out.
Memoirs. We both have memoirs. It's a very, very vulnerable state to be in to expose ourselves like this. That brings me to another one of my favorite quotes, though, by Teddy Roosevelt. This might be one of yours, too. “The credit belongs to the man who's actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without [00:17:00] error and shortcoming, who at best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly.”
That's about risk, but every time we take risks, it's all about uncertainty. And it's about not being able to control the outcome. And so we can stay in our safe zones and feel comfortable, but I don't know that that's living our best lives or reaching our deepest sense of self. I think what I felt the most in those moments was reaching this core of myself, that it's just not accessible every day.
It's just when you really have to stretch. Really have to see what are you made of to do something. And there's something very alive as I use in that sentence and also almost holy about that. Cause we can like go through life on the surface or we can have deeper experiences. Have you felt that way since?
I really feel it the most when I'm in my body. So when I'm dancing and hiking, you know, I wanted to be a dancer. That's a through line in my book. That's why it's called tap dancing on Everest. And [00:18:00] of course, hiking, I do a lot of hiking when I can let my body lead and I'm in my body is when I feel the most whole it's sort of like getting out of my mind, getting the mind out of the way.
It's sort of what I try to do in yoga. It's so hard to fight those thoughts in my head and quiet the mind and all that. I feel like the body has a lot to teach us. Yeah. The body is another theme in my book.
Jessica Fein: Right. Okay, so let's talk about the dancing, by the way. I thought it was so interesting that you, you know, presumably had to be very deliberate about every single thing you took with you, and yet you took your tap shoes.
Mimi Zieman: I know, I don't even know why, I can't remember why. I think I had an inspiration when I was hiking in Nepal for those months when I met Robert who ultimately invited me on the team. He was part of an expedition and I went to some of their parties after they had finished their climb and there was a woman there playing the harp.
I thought, why did she have the harp up here in the Himalayas? That's harder to pack than tap shoes. Yeah, she schlepped this thing, and she's playing it, and it's so interesting. So I think, [00:19:00] you know, when I was going on the expedition, the last minute, I put my top shoes in. You know, that's part of me. And did you end up using them?
I did, which is what my title is from. And that scene represents, to me, fusing this love of dance in the mountains. And also feeling wholly myself able to expose myself like that to the guys tap dancing on a boulder in front of them in my crazy psychedelic tights and not feeling ashamed and abashed.
Jessica Fein: Okay, this, by the way, really does need to be made into a movie. Let's just put it out there for, you know, the universe to hear because there are so many vivid scenes like that. The book really is about the intersection of feminism, medicine, and irreverence for nature. And you've mentioned all of those things in this conversation.
How do these three things continue to play a role in your life?
Mimi Zieman: It's a great question. After the expedition, I finished medical school, I trained in OBGYN, that's my field of practice my [00:20:00] whole career. So it's focused on women and women's advocacy and feminism. More recently since I've been writing, I wrote a play after the Supreme Court Dobbs decision called The Post Roe Monologues, which is Also, using writing to tell women's stories and what's actually happening on the ground.
So medicine, feminism, those are really important to me. Nature is my happy place. It's where I go to restore, again, get out of my head.
Jessica Fein: Well, let's talk about The Post Roe Monologues because it's interesting that the book is about something that happened so long ago in your life. And the play is so timely and something that you wrote as a response to what was happening in a very quick turnaround because it's already been, what do you say about a play?
It's already been shown. It's already been held. It's already been run.
Mimi Zieman: Performed.
Jessica Fein: Thank you. Because it's already been performed.
Mimi Zieman: Yeah. So when I handed my book and my manuscript to my [00:21:00] agent. It was May of 2022, and I said, well, maybe I'll never write anything again. And then in June, the Supreme Court Dobbs decision happened, and I do a lot of women's advocacy work in the community, and I was in a meeting, how should we educate people about Dobbs and the repercussions of, of this change in abortion access?
And I suddenly had this idea to write The Post Roe Monologues, a play. And by the end of the meeting, they said, okay, it's being performed in six weeks. Like, write it, and we're doing it in six weeks. And I wrote it. I did a lot of research. I did a couple of interviews. I used my entire career's worth of experience.
And we did do the first performance six weeks later and 350 people came. Wow. And so then had a couple of performances since. So, it's exciting to have that moment of inspiration and, and do something with it. I don't feel that confident of a writer, you know, because I haven't been doing it my whole life.
So, that was a nice thing to do.
Jessica Fein: It is interesting, and we have talked about it quite a [00:22:00] bit on the show. this lack of confidence as a writer. I mean, I'm looking at you and I'm like, you have a memoir coming out. You have a play that's been performed. You have other books that you've written, not in the memoir form.
So it's funny when you said you don't feel comfortable as a writer. And meanwhile, there is so much and so many different genres in which you're writing.
Mimi Zieman: Yeah, it's that old imposter syndrome. It's tough not to crack, isn't it? It really, really is.
Jessica Fein: So now you are not living near the mountains. You call yourself a suburban mom of three.
Does life ever feel boring to you?
Mimi Zieman: I wish I could be boring. I wish I could be bored. I keep pushing myself. I say I wish I could be, you know, someone who goes out to lunch and takes it easy and takes a break. I'm constantly thinking of new projects and doing them. So, unfortunately not. I'm very busy with advocacy.
I am writing more things. Haven't really had that feeling yet.
Jessica Fein: That's good. I just imagine like being in the suburbs and, you know, going to [00:23:00] the shopping center or whatever, and then thinking back to some of these other just hugely exotic adventures and places you've been. I wonder if you look back at that with longing.
Mimi Zieman: Yes. So I think while raising my children in suburbia, I did feel that a lot, but I was so busy working and raising the kids, there wasn't much time to lament. But I did often say, how did we end up here? Like, why are we living in the suburbs? You know, first of all, used to New York City. You know, that's where I was raised.
Very different than the suburbs. And then, of course, these adventures. So I did think it was funny that that was the life that we had to raise our kids, who all three, by the way, live in New York City now. So, I go up there all the time and get my dose of city.
Jessica Fein: Well, your mother was not exactly supportive of this adventure you were embarking on.
If one of your kids came to you from New York City and had some grand scheme that you thought was maybe a little bit unsought out or a little [00:24:00] risky, having done what you've done, what would you do?
Mimi Zieman: That's such a good question. I definitely felt more sympathy for my mother once I became a mother, as many of us do, right?
I've always encouraged them to, I've been one of these moms that follow your passions, follow your dreams, you know, but I would be scared for them if they were in a risky situation. Absolutely.
Jessica Fein: Did any of them inherit the adventure gene?
Mimi Zieman: They haven't done something like that I've done. But I love this about my two daughters who both read the book recently.
And they both said to me, you know, maybe I can go travel alone. You know, I've been too afraid. Maybe I could do that. Maybe I could try, you know, and that's what you want, like someone to read your story and someone to feel like, oh, I could do something too that I've wanted to do, but I've been too afraid of.
So, that made me feel good. You know, and that's what I wanted people to get, this sense that, you know, maybe they could stretch themselves a little more.
Jessica Fein: I definitely think that comes across. [00:25:00] Absolutely. I mean, it is such an inspirational story. Did your kids always know you had done this? I mean, or did they read this book and they were like, what, mom?
I mean, obviously, you know, they must have heard your stories and seen pictures, but what did they learn about you through the book?
Mimi Zieman: We haven't talked much about it yet. They only just recently read it. I was a little nervous about them seeing me in a different light, you know, because kids see their mother as their mother, they don't necessarily want to see her as like a twenty something, sharing a sleeping bag, yeah, having a little romance on the mountain and, uh, that sort of thing, although I have to tell you this is funny, my daughter in law's first reaction was, You really could have put more sex in the book.
Jessica Fein: Okay, well, presumably you have a very good relationship with your daughter in law for her to be able to say that to you.
Mimi Zieman: But, you know, there is no sex in the book, and a few other people have said that, and I thought, what a funny thing to say to someone you know when you want to read about their sex.
[00:26:00] Yeah, so I think they know me in a different way, but we haven't had that discussion.
Jessica Fein: So, two of your climbing family members wrote books, as you said, way closer to the actual expedition, and you waited a quite a long time. Why was this the right time?
Mimi Zieman: Because I finally had time. When I came back, I really, really wanted to write a book, and it would have been such a different book.
It would have been just my adventure story, which I was so excited to tell. And I came back to my fourth year of medical school and medical training. I couldn't afford to take time off. I had medical school loans that I was making payments on. And then I just put my head down, had my career, raised my kids.
And every once in a while, something would peak up about this book. Like in 2015, I randomly transcribed my Everest journal into a computer document. But then it wasn't till 2019 that I just actually had one of those dramatic moments where you resign from a job a little bit unexpectedly. And the next day [00:27:00] I started writing the book and just started writing full time.
I didn't plan it. I just finally had a moment. And it just all came out of me. And I think it was in there all along. And of course, now it's a completely different book than I would have been what I wrote at 25.
Jessica Fein: Right. It would have been so interesting had you written that one to compare the two, right?
Mimi Zieman: Yeah, this is so much more about questions of how we make our choices in life. I say it's coming of age, and some people think of that as only an adolescent time period. And I thought, well, of course it, you know, goes through age 25, which is when the expedition happens for me. And now I think of it as a lifelong process.
Coming of age is what we do every day when we think about how do we want to live our lives? What kind of person do we want to be? What's important to us, our values? What are we going to risk to live that kind of life or to live fully?
Jessica Fein: I so agree. I heard something just this morning by Liz Gilbert where she was saying if we can approach every day with curiosity and act from [00:28:00] our curiosity, not our fear, then our life becomes a work of art in itself.
Mimi Zieman: Mmm.
Jessica Fein: Loved that.
Mimi Zieman: I love that. That's beautiful. And I think curiosity is actually what drove me through all of these events. That was the driving force.
Jessica Fein: What are you curious about now?
Mimi Zieman: I'm curious about what it's going to be like to have this book out and be able to talk to readers like you when you said it stayed with you, something, something, this or that.
Like I'm curious, like, wow, that's what I tried to do. I'm curious about this little next phase.
Jessica Fein: Well, I think that you will hear from quite a few people once they have the opportunity to live vicariously through you, which, like I said, I kind of felt myself there on the mountain at that Seder with you are doing the Israeli dancing like I was there with you.
So, so excited for everybody to be able to get their hands on this book and to hear your story and to see what you do next. Responding to what's happening [00:29:00] today. And as we know, there's a lot of changes happening real time right now. And I know that your voice is going to be so important in response to everything that's going on.
And I personally am just so glad that I get to be somebody who is able to listen to what you have to say.
Mimi Zieman: I feel that way about you, Jessica. Thank you so much. It's an honor to be talking to you and to be able to hear more of your voice.
Jessica Fein: Here are my takeaways from the conversation with Mimi. Number one, say yes to opportunities that scare you.
That is where real growth happens.
Number two, if somebody you trust sees something in you that you don't see, listen to them.
Number three, when you feel like an imposter, it can help to be really, really prepared, and then to remind yourself of how prepared you are.
Number four, staying in our safe zones is comfortable, but if we do, we might never reach our deepest sense of self.
Number five, life can crumble in an instant, so we might as well live fiercely.
Number six, coming of [00:30:00] age is what we do every day when we think about how we want to live our lives, what kind of person we want to be, what's important to us, and what we are going to risk to live fully.
And number seven, when we live with curiosity, our life becomes a work of art.
Thanks so much for listening. If you want to hear more about the people on this podcast and to follow my own publishing journey for my upcoming book, Breathtaking, a memoir of family, dreams, and broken genes, which is available for pre order now. That's my plug. Check out my website at jessicafeinstories.com. Have a great day. Talk to you next time.